Sign the Chicago Tea Party petition

Go ahead. Have some fun! (Saw it first on Ol’ Broad, by the way.)

One of the comments really started me thinking. Taxation without representation is exactly what we just put to the next couple of generations. Maybe they should be able to vote, too.


  1. I’ve had a blog in the works on this subject for some time…but I am looking for a teaching aid I used for 2nd grade to help illustrate the point. (It’s here somewhere.)

    But the war cry of Boston still fits. We again have taxation without representation! For all of us who called or emailed our Senators and Representatives to no avail, it is just like having NO say!

    I hope the idea catches on before we are bankrupt.

  2. We’ve been saying the same thing about Iraq for 7 years now, and now you’re crying wolf. Life has a certain karma to it.

  3. So we’re even, and you’re screwed, kiddo.

    Karma indeed.

  4. Randy in Richmond says:

    Has anyone else noticed that for the most part Democrats and liberals hardly ever defend Obama or his policies but continue to bash Bush and his policies?

  5. Mostly, I am secure enough in my beliefs that I don’t feel compelled to defend something that doesn’t need defense.

    Screwed is better than dead in Iraq, Cin.

  6. True, Randy. Someone has completely ignored that Obamagod just sent 17,000 more troops to be “dead” in Afghanistan.

  7. Randy in Richmond says:

    Talking about our service people dying is always sad and serious. During the Bush administration’s 8 years, 8,368 men and women perished while serving this country. During the 8 years of the Clinton administration 14,107 men and women perished. This was a decrease of 59% during the Bush administration. Of course, one is too many.

  8. That’s a garbage comparison. What do the numbers look like, taking into account “hostile action”?

  9. Hey, Randy. Source your comment, please.

  10. Randy, I think I read that too, in Ted Kaczynski’s Big Book of Urban Legends.

  11. How many people remember Clinton’s war on Serbians in Europe . You know the one with lack of coverage and pictures of destruction from the MSM.

    Good War – Clinton, Obummer
    Bad War – Bush

  12. J. Strupp, I’ve been thinking. Your example leaves out the National Guard. Are there numbers for them, too?

  13. Randy in Richmond says:

    I was duped. I have had those numbers since last spring. They are all over the net. They are wrong. I went to DOD and obtained their numbers which are as follows:
    Clinton Years– 7500 Military Deaths
    Bush Years—– 8989 (2001-2006)
    (Go to page CRS-7)

    They don’t provide totals for the last two years of the Bush administration but I would assume 2007 to be very high and 2008 to be relatively low.

    Here is just one site giving the wrong numbers I used:

    There are numerous others with the wrong information. For using this false information I sincerely apologize.

  14. You’re a good man Randy to correct the information. Excellent work!

  15. I had a difficult time finding the DOD numbers too. They aren’t easily accessible for some reason.

    I’ll check into the National Guard data too.

    I really didn’t want to focus too much on the number of military deaths, due to our actions in Iraq. The number of civilian deaths following our invasion is much more staggering (around 100,000 depending on which organization’s number you use). The loss of life during this occupation has been staggering.

    That being said, my beef has always been with the reason (or lack thereof) for going to war in Iraq.

  16. Randy in Richmond says:

    Your statement implies that the 100,000 civilian deaths are the result of American military action. They are not. And if one applies the rate at which Sadaam had been killing his own people prior to the UN action an argument can be made that lives in the long run were saved. It is a fact that Sadaam killed at least 100,000 Kurds in the North and in specific cities like Halabja. He also drove over 250,000 Marsh Arabs from their lands and mined it so they could not return. Estimates are that tens of thousands of the Marsh Arabs died or were killed. And no one knows how many Shiites his Sunni regime killed as part of his rule by tyranny.

    Civilians killed in the Korean War for both North and South– 715,000. Civilians killed in North and South Vietnam– 4,500,000. And just as a point of reference, in just the one Battle of Gettysburg, 46,000 Americans were killed in three days.
    As of today 4,245 Americans have died in Iraq, a war of about 6 years.

  17. Rick Santelli for President. When the revolution comes I’ll be glad I’m on the side that’s armed.

  18. Much as I enjoy a little hyperbole, the tone of this conversation disturbs me.

    I disapprove of the Iraq war, but I did have congressional representation. Anyone can disapprove of the stimulus package, but the congress voted. We were represented.

    I know people who lost their fathers because the Nazis killed all the men in their little Greek village. I know a man who was imprisoned and tortured for being a member of a Christian tribe in a socialist state. I know a man who was jailed for a decade for being a socialist in an Islamic state (he was 16 at the time.) My own relatives have been snatched off the streets in central asia for being the wrong race or religion or simply young and not enlisted.

    Go to Chicago and throw your tea in the Lake. (Anything that washes up will be blamed on Milwaukee anyway.) It is a meaningful expression. Just don’t shoot anybody.

  19. Oh, I’m represented. My children under voting age are not, and that’s the main complaint. This spending will shackle generations.

    Maybe we should just send the kids?

  20. Are they ever represented? If you’re making the case for lowering the voting age, i’m all for it.

    If the mentally ill and uninformed can vote, why can’t kids?

  21. Randy in Richmond says:

    I suspect on the Iraq War, the members of Congress or their staff, had actually read the Bill and it contained no handwritten pages. I’m not sure any Congressperson voting on a bill of the significance of the Stimulus Bill, without themselves or their staff having read it, is truly representation.

  22. They never read the bills Randy, don’t kid yourself.

    Do you have proof of the hand-written provisions?

    And if it was a part of the bill, hand-written or not, i don’t see the problems. What do you think they did before computers and typewriters came along?

  23. Randy in Richmond says:

    If no one had shot anyone how many people in the name of Nazism would have been killed or imprisoned? And thank you for giving us permission to partake in an activity guaranteed by the Constitution.

  24. Randy in Richmond says:


    Someone on their staff(s) always read the bills. And when for over a year one of the main cogs of a candidate’s platform has been transparency and his first major bill is passed this way…

  25. Yep, Lorax, you walked into that one. Lots handwritten. Lots of surprises to come.

    Bet Obama didn’t read it either. Otherwise he would have known of Dodd’s little compensation change sooner.

  26. Lorax – how do you think any college student would be graded if they turned in a term paper half typed and half handwritten and simply told the teacher, “Well you said the paper was due today, I didn’t have time to type up the last few pages.”

    And that’s college…. don’t you think 800 billion dollars is a bigger deal than a term paper.

  27. No one read the Patriot Act, for example. What did I “walk” into? An ambush of sorts?

  28. The difference is congress doesn’t have a Professor who writes a syllabus. Bad analogy.

  29. Randy in Richmond says:

    How about a link that ‘no one’ read the Patriot Act. Not ‘some’ or ‘their staff’ but ‘no one’.

  30. @Lorax, I believe Professor Obama wrote his campaign planks as the “syllabus”. And I think we’re all in for quite an education. I would title it, “History Repeats Itself”.

    @Randy, yes, transparency! Obama’s idea of transparency seems to be a one-way mirror: He sees us and hides from us, all at the same time.

  31. Pardon the expression, but bad analogy my ass. I’ve got a better one – following Obama is like following the Pied Piper…. clear enough for you? You are like a little child, about to go for a ‘swim’.

  32. Maybe, Dan. But i’m sticking with ”wait-and-see.” Stimulus ain’t perfect, but I don’t think it is anywhere near the boondogglery that is Iraq.

    Your side owns that, and it is ironic to see the tea party patriots are roused against a bill aimed at stimulating the economy, when they turned a blind eye on the irresponsible spending of their last 3+ presidents.

    I don’t love the stimulus. I don’t even like it. But because we’ve ignored all the signs of this as a nation, we have to do something.

    There is enough blood the lay on the hands of everyone. We weren’t proactive nor prudent, and now we’re paying the price.

  33. Lorax, your last few comments have been so jumbled I’m wondering if you even know for what you are arguing.

    The tea party is proposed against picking winners and losers in BO’s new homeowner package. It has nothing to do with the stimulus package that was signed.

    Regarding your stimulus argument, “we have to do something” is a pretty easy argument when none of your money is spent on the doing.

  34. Randy in Richmond says:

    Letting the free market system work ‘is’ doing something. Just as George Bush let it work last year with the price of oil, when those on both sides were proposing all types of panicked solutions.
    When I was in college if a professor didn’t show for class there was an unwritten rule to wait 20 minutes before leaving. Does anyone know what the time limit is before Democrats stop blaming President Bush or his policies for decisions that President Obama makes? The Iraq War has absolutely nothing to do with Obama’s policy to ask one group of Americans to help pay for another group of American’s homes.

  35. Jumbled? I don’t think so. Those wars COST more money and lives than the stimulus or homeowner plan would.

    But I guess maybe it is hard to understand something you have had to detach from in order to support.

  36. And Randy, how has the free market system rewarded us in the financial sector?

    Also, Oil prices are artificially low because of oil subsidies. That’s not a free market.

  37. Those wars are supported by your chosen one, so gripe at him, not me.

    You don’t have a clue what a free market looks like, kid. Too high, too low, you always have a reason to complain.

  38. Randy in Richmond says:

    No, according to the Congressional Budget Office, it isn’t even close. If projected until 2017, the Iraq and Afghnistan Wars will cost approximately 1.2 to 1.7 trillion dollars (taken from 2003). If the Stimulus package alone, not including the Mortgage Plan, is renewed for 10 years it will cost 3.27 trillion dollars.

    I’m glad you brought this up because for most of us to discuss ‘trillions’ of dollars it is difficult get a grasp of the enormity of that amount. This helps to put it in perspective how much money this really is..

  39. Nor do you, Cin.

  40. Stop Stealing My Money Girl says:

    How is it that this “stimulous” bill was so critical to Obama, that he needed it to be rushed trough to the point where no one could even read all 1100 pages? If it was such an emergency, why then did he go on a four day vacation before signing it?

    Couldn’t we have had four days to read it?

    Also, how is it that Rolland Burris’ issues of lying under oath, which are resulting in calls for his resignation, only came out AFTER this vote?

    We’ve been HAD. To alll those who voted for CHANGE, you got it. You just changed the way of Washington to be even closer to Chicago curruption.

  41. Randy in Richmond says:

    This ‘Come on Down’ administration used another sorta game TV show, The Fear Factor, to push through the largest spending legislation ever, with zero votes to spare. You gotta give Obama credit as he woke up yesterday and thought, gee we have this huge deficit I just tripled, so being the socialist he is he thinks let’s raise taxes to help lower it. And certainly we will not renew parts, if not all, of the Bush tax cuts as that will also represent another tax increase.
    And he further thinks, let’s say we will do it by 2013, four years from now.
    Wait a minute, isn’t that the year ‘after’ the next Presidential election?
    I’ve said this many times in the past month, but Obama and his posse are playing us to be stupid. And unfortunately I now realize he is right about many of us.

  42. People like our own Lorax will still be moaning about Bush when it comes time for the next election. So many people will be on the dole that no one will even remember the phrase “personal responsibility.”

  43. Stop Stealing My Money Girl says:

    Some of the spending on this bill doesn’t happen until after the 2010 election. Is there anything that can be done to stop it if we get enough Republicans or Libertarians in office?

  44. Randy comment #34:

    The price of oil was “fixed” by the free market when consumer spending collapsed under the burden of American indebtedness. Let’s be clear, the price of oil is cheaper today as a consequence of the global economic crisis, not some magical Bush policy.

    If you think the unhindered, unregulated, free market capitalism of the last 25 years is the answer to the world’s problems, you should take a look around. Like what you see?

    Why do you think we are talking about huge deficits, massive bailouts, enormous stimulus packages, bank nationalization? Welcome to the consequences of unregulated, unhindered free market capitalism. Where regulators use the SEC as a stepping stone to a career in the banking industry; where hedge funds and shadow banks use the joys of quantitative finance to lever themselves 40 times over by giving anyone with a pulse a credit card, credit line or mortgage, then collapse into a pile of worthless garbage for taxpayer’s to pick up the tab for. Where Federal Reserve chairmen believe that the wealth of Wall Street is more important than protecting the global economy from devastating asset bubbles that wipe out IRA’s and pension funds of average Americans.

    THIS is unhindered, free market capitalism. Now, much like the 1930’s, we get to figure out how to pick up the pieces.

  45. Just where, exactly do you see “unhindered, unregulated, free market capitalism.” It’s gone bud.

    That’s the problem.

  46. Cindy, you like to use correlations as evidence. Economy started tanking as soon as deregulation began.

  47. Randy in Richmond says:

    You ask when I look around what do I see? Well, there are several directions I can look. If I watch the TV I see mostly doom and gloom as reflected by our President and the Democratic Congress. I read of foreclosures which are up but constitute only 6 % of the market in real numbers. I see states like Michigan, California, and most large cities struggling because they have continued to raise all kinds of taxes to the extent that businesses are choosing elsewhere to do their thing. Because of unions and federal regulations our traditional auto industry is struggling while other plants in the US that are non-union are getting it done.
    Cycles in any economy are part of the dynamic that is capitalism. Here are just a few of scores of articles blaming Bush for the high oil prices of last year:

    Yet when prices drop he gets no credit. You Bush bashers have lost all credibility with me. Quite frankly after reading your posts for a while it is clear that economically and polititically you would be much happier in Venezuela. Your lists of complaints are about people who abuse for personal gain — not the system itself. And if left to correct itself the free market system will. It can be painful but it is part of the price we pay to be free. Even with all the abuses you list the government is not the answer. Certainly the government has a duty to see that laws and regulations are enforced and adhered to. But when members of Congress publicly berate some of the regulators ( I could link the everything’s fine tapes but everyone’s seen them) for trying to do their job and Congress looks the other way from Fanny Mae and Freddie Mack while they cook their own books, it points to those running the ship–not the ship. And the policies that are tossing the ship around were almost entirely enacted by Congress–not President Bush.
    And we might get there, but we aren’t close to the thirties yet. Oil is near a seven year low. Inflation is nominal. Fixed mortgage rates are being advertised under 5 %. Food prices are level or slightly down. Unemployment is up but we need to go up another 15 percent to approach 1930’s levels. In 1933 unemployment was 24.75 % in the US and in 1939, after 7 years of the New Deal, it was 17 – 19%. In 1932 30 % of Amerians were classified as poor, and in 1939 60 % met that classification. In the Jimmy Carter years unemployment pushed 11 %, gasoline was rationed and the cost adjusted price was over $5.00/gallon, credit card interest was 24 % and up, fixed home mortgages were double digit, and the biggie–inflation was over 10 % for three years straight, peaking at over 12 %. and remember $15,000/year was a good salary then.
    As for me personally, life is good. I choose not to participate in the doom and gloom. Compared to a year ago I have taken a hit in some stocks and done well in some others that were shorted. Each month I have about $125-150 in gasoline savings I didn’t have a year ago. My real estate taxes dropped $520 as did the assessment on my home which was over-inflated to start with. I actually know no one who has had their home foreclosed and I have quite a few friends of all persuations. I do live in a right-to-work state which helps keep many of our workers from the clutches of the unions.
    So no, it’s not like the 1930’s and it’s been proven over and over we don’t need the government to pick up any pieces.

  48. You’ll have to try much harder, Lorax.

    Randy, honestly, I think you need to be posting this instead of commenting. If you won’t get your own blog set up, I may have to give you a sign in here.

  49. Randy in Richmond says:

    What deregulation Lomax? Things started going south just about the time Democrats took over Congress in 2006.

  50. Things were going south long before then, lol. Too funny.

  51. Stop Stealing My Money Girl says:


    I don’t think anyone is saying that there shouldn’t be regulations, but regulations won’t save you from the boogie man. Do you think that Bernie Madoff followed all of those regulations???? His misdeeds were brought to the attention of regulators several times with no results.

    The point is, we need regulations, but they can’t save you from everything and if you panic and ask for too much government interventionn you will have socialism. This is much worse than what we have today (anyone who’s been to European Socialist Countries know what I’m talking about here).

    PS The government (democrats in particular) are the ones that mandated the Community Reinvestment Act, a governement regulation that started the whole problem). We all should have been more vigilant when this happened, and we failed. Overreacting now is not the answer.

  52. Ah, Lorax. The new king of the one-liners. I don’t see any reason why you should be absolved from documenting your opinion. The rest of us try pretty hard to keep our argument legitimate.

    Too good for it, kid? If you don’t have time to make an effort, spare us your righteousness.

  53. Stop Stealing – “Overreacting now is not the answer.”

    Well put.

  54. Cindy, you insult me no matter what I do. I’ve gotten used to it. For example, I attempted a conversation on lowering the voting age. And I tried talking about your cooking too. Both were ignored.

    You have a funny way of appreciating ‘legitimate arguments.’

  55. Randy:

    You can save your superficial, “if you don’t like America then get the hell out and move to Venezuela” nonsense for someone else. My commentary has always addressed the glaring deficiencies of the most current form of laissez faire capitalism that has led to the current global crisis. I believe government has an important role to play in markets and my commentary reflects this premise. I didn’t major in marketing, study central/eastern European finance in Europe and choose a business career in manufacturing so that I could reject capitalism as the most successful economic model the world has ever seen. You lose all creditability with me when you accuse me of being a socialist. That’s just weak.

    Secondly, I’m very aware of the economic fundamentals of the Great Depression. You don’t have to waste your time comparing data from the depression to today’s economic crisis. I consider studying the economic and political dynamic of the Depression a hobby. I have never said that current market conditions are on par with those of the depression. However, I have said that the market conditions leading up to this crisis are very similar to the conditions leading up to the Depression. Collapsing debt bubbles and asset prices, bank runs (electronic runs vs. lining up at the bank doors in the 30’s), followed by a prolonged period of deflationary pressures, high unemployment and low economic growth. My commentary has always been directed towards fighting systemic risk, which I believe is very real. Obviously, we disagree on the extent of the damage done to the global economy over the past decades. You feel this is just a typical cyclical recession. Good for you. Glad to see everything is going well looking out your front window. My opinion of what is occurring can best be summed up by reading Irving Fisher’s, “Debt Deflation Theory of Great Depressions”. Read it if you want. Judging by your “front window” view of the world, you’ll think it’s complete nonsense. Hopefully, Fischer’s theory can give you a basic understanding of where I’m coming from and why I support any and all attempts by governments throughout the world to take combat this crisis.

  56. Cindy,

    The form of capitalism we have experienced since the early 1980’s is the closest form of unhindered, free market capitalism the world has ever experienced. A close second would be the 20’s.

    One more Randy:

    “it’s not like the 1930’s and it’s been proven over and over we don’t need the government to pick up any pieces.”


    Really? Proven? What finally got us out of the Great Depression Randy? Most would say WWII. What was WWII in economic terms? I massive government spending program (check out the debt/GDP level of our government during this time period) directed towards stimulating the economy into manufacturing weapons of war. Couple this “fact”, with the slow repair of consumer balance sheets beginning in the early 1930’s to the end of WWII, and you have the very reason we continued our prosperity beyond 1945.

  57. Randy in Richmond says:

    Where did I tell you to get out of America? Where did I tell you to move to Venezuela? I, for instance, would be much happier right now in Hawaii, as it’s very cold here and it would be more to my liking there.
    And you have made numerous posts on this site that reflect your beliefs, all can read them. To use part of an old quote, ” if it quacks like a duck”…

  58. “Quite frankly after reading your posts for a while it is clear that economically and polititically you would be much happier in Venezuela.”

    Yes. I have made numerous posts on this site. It appears your dogma is such that you are unable to even consider a rational alternative to your argument. There’s really no use even trying to debate the issue with you is there?

    I do find irony in the fact that you distrust government so much, yet agree with every piece of B.S. the previous adminstration put out prior to our invasion of Iraq without question.

    Do you hate government or do you just have a difficult time admitting when certain beliefs you hold dear to your heart are revealed to be wrong?

  59. Randy in Richmond says:


    Yes, and no.

  60. Despots always use desperation to make their move. We are going to join Germany turning to the Nazi party and the Cubans turning to Castro as our country is dismantled by the socialists in just a few weeks.

  61. Strupp –

    Our forefathers and framers essentially warned future generations about and designed our government to prevent “excesses and growth of government”. Is it hatred of government to follow their lead?


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